Kōans are about a living relationship. One of the primary reasons for offering these old kōans on Shake Out Your Sleeves and Go is to encourage relationship with these teachings. And so I have been doing interviews with other kōan teachers. One way that you can join in the interactive, contemplative relationship process is to leave a comment or a question. So, you are very welcome to do so.
Another reason for offering these kōans here is to encourage those interested to take up kōan work. I’ve found it to be just an incredible process. In the interview I offer in this post, Daniel Terragno Rōshi sings that same tune—as have all the fourteen teachers I’ve interviewed so far.
If you aren’t already so engaged, you are invited to explore training with us (Tetsugan Sensei, me, and Vine of Obstacles Zen training group). You can learn more about how to go about Vine training and the first steps toward becoming a Vine student by clicking here. If all of that is too much, well, I recommend finding kōan teachers with whom you have affinity.
That said, some teachers are just lovely people and Daniel Terragno Rōshi is one such example. At Zen teacher meetings, Daniel always stood out in that way. He was also close friends with close friends of mine, Yvonne Rand and Bill Sterling (both have now transitioned from this life). Daniel and I once skipped out of a teacher meeting at San Francisco Zen Center, in fact, and went to dinner at Yvonne and Bill’s house in Marin County. And had such a memorably delightful time.
Daniel is a successor of John Tarrant Rōshi, a teacher with the Diamond Sangha, and the founder of Rocks and Clouds Zendo in Sebastopol, CA.
In the interview, I ask Daniel, “What is awakening?”
He responds:
“I often use the term spaciousness, the spaciousness that is always around us, the basic ground in which life occurs. And it’s very different than me and my opinions, and me, my “I,” and everything revolving around me. Kenshō gives us that perspective, like, “Wow, this is always here.” When we touch that we know that there is so much spaciousness—everything is possible. No matter what happens, I know I’m in the right place, even when it sucks. And it’s not that I feel like a butterfly, fluttering everywhere. No, even when it’s hard, I know this is my place. This is a consequence of kenshō, of course. It’s after having done the work that we do.”
“There is so much spaciousness—everything is possible.”
Here’s the kōan we discuss:
Attendant Kuò asked Déshān, “Where have all the ancestral teachers gone?”
Déshan said, “How’s that? What?”
Kuò said, “The imperial orders were for a flying dragon, but out comes a lame turtle.”
Déshan let it rest. The next day, Déshan came from the bath and Kuò passed him tea. All of a sudden, Déshan gently patted Kuò’s back.
Kuò said, “This old man has finally had a glimpse.”
Déshan let it rest.
And Daniel’s succinct summary:
“As a young man, Déshān was loud and forceful and liked to beat people up and scream. Here [in this case] he is an older man […]. I think that Déshān has grown. He was so arrogant—as we see him with the tea lady, and the tea lady transformed him, and then he ends up with Lóngtán. It seems to me that [in this case] Déshān was just being—he didn’t do anything. No, he didn’t want to interfere with [Attendant Kuò] too much. Somehow he could just relax and not push him. Aitken Rōshi said, ‘Déshān shows him where all the Buddhas and Ancestors live.’”
My thanks go to Martin Kaku’on again for surmounting several barriers in the editing and production of this recording.
You can read more about this case here:
Attendant Kuò Passes Tea: Let It All Rest
With this post, we begin the cycle again. First, I’ll offer my translation of an old case and some brief comments with background on Déshan and then highlight one of the main issues in the case. Wànsōng expresses that main issue in his introduction:
